Крив гриф?!

[redburner]

Здравейте съфорумци

Имам един такъв въпрос към вас...

 

малко интро: преди няколко месеца китарата ми претърпя инцидент (който даже и не искам да коментирам ) мислех си че поръжения освен "повърхностно-козметични", така да се каже, няма... но май не е съвсем така

 

Питам се ако натиснете една от двете крайни струни на първо и последно прагче, струната трябва или не трябва да се докосва до абсолютно всички прагове по грифа!? Като направя това, на праговете след 12тия до последния, струната се долепя плътно до всички обаааче от там нагоре започва да се появява разстояние, което изчезва чак при 2ри-3ти праг

 

Мисля че вече разбрахте какъв ще ми е въпроса... малко съм n0ob с тялото и грифа и не ми е мн ясно тва нормално ли е... и ако не е.. какво бих могъл да направя. Ще съм ви много благодарен ако ме просветлите с малко повече инфо по темата. Мерси!

[Glacierise]

Truss rod adjustment ше триаа Потърси във форума, дискутирано е обширно.

[niki123bg]

Здравей

 

Тази кривина е нормална и е дори необходима. Ако грифът е прав, струните ти ще "браждят" когато свириш на първите прагчета 2-3-4. Това е така, защото струната вибрира с най-голяма амплитуда в средата си и там грифът трябва да е леко вдлъбнат за да не се докосва струната до прагчетата когато вибрира.

 

Друг въпрос е до колко е голяма тази кривина. Тя зависи от напрежението в струните, настройката на тръст рода (едно желязо което е пъхнато в грифа) и атмосферните условия - топлина, влажност. За това е предвидено да може да се настройва.

 

Единият вариант е да си настроиш тази кривина като измерваш разстоянието между прагчето (горната част на прагчето) и струната, когато си натиснал струната на 1-во и крайното ти прагче - примерно 24-то. Погледни в книжката си какво трябва да е това разстояние.

 

Вторият начин е първо да си настроиш височината на ненатиснатите струните когато така че да ти е удобно (2 - 2.5 мм на 6-та струна и 1.5 - 2 мм на 1-ва струна - това се мери обикновенно на 12-то прагче). След като си настроил така височината на свободните струни, да провериш дали браждят когато свириш на 2, 3, 4 прагче. Ако браждят - правиш кривината на грифа по-голяма - т.е. оставяш повече разстояние за да вибрират.

 

Регулирането на кривината става като се върти винта на тръст рода. Пак е добре да погледнеш в книжката си в коя посока трябва да се завърти за да си изправи или за да се направи по-голяма кривината.

 

Ако не си го правил досега, най-добре я занеси на някой лютиер който разбира от електрически инструменти да я настрои.

 

Това е в общи линии. Не много изчерпателно, но колегите ще ме допълнят и поправят където е необходимо.

 

Неаа се плашиш

Редактирано Юли 28, 2005 от niki123bg

[Glacierise]

http://forum.muzikant.org/index.php?showtopic=1110&hl=truss

 

 

http://forum.muzikant.org/index.php?showtopic=1004&hl=truss

 

:read:

[Black Bird]

Step 3: Neck Bow - Truss Rod adjustment

 

Buzzing above the 10-12th fret is likely due to the bridge being too low. Buzzing from frets 2-7 is usually from truss rod maladjustment - the neck does not have enough bow. Likewise poor action can be enhanced by increased neck bow. If your neck is well warn have a tech examine it for defects or problems that may need to be corrected in addition to the truss rod adjustment. Ken points out that buzzing above frets 10-12 can in some instanced be caused by "fretboard tongue warpage, low or high frets, or frets coming out of the slot." These are major repair items that a tech would need to tackle.

 

I honestly don't go crazy with exact trussrod measurements/adjustments because the neck bow on all guitars can change slightly with the seasons. What I do is make sure I have enough neck bow to eliminate buzzing from fret 2-7. Of the reference measurement, I set my guitars up for the maximum bow tolerance. A guitar string, when depressed at fret 1 & 24, is a quick and accurate straight edge. Use the string as a straight edge to visualize and measure neck bow. When the string is used as a straight edge you should see a subtle space between the bottom of the string and top of fret 7.

 

Step By Step: Neck Bow - Truss Rod Adjustment

 

Tools Needed

 

 

* Small Phillips-head screwdriver - for trussrod cover

* Supplied Ibanez tool - for truss rod nut (7mm thin wall socket)

 

Procedure

 

 

1. Remove the trussrod cover by unscrewing the three cover screws.

2. Hold the low-E string on fret 1 and 24. (You can use a capo, extra set of hands, rubber bands, etc..)

3. Now check the measurement at Fret 7

4. Adjust the neck "relief" - make one small change (1/4 to 1/3 turn) at a time

* More neck bow needed (not enough clearance) - loosen trussrod

* Less neck bow needed (too much clearance) - tighten trussrod

5. Retune the guitar

6. Let the guitar settle for 15-60 minutes while playing or hanging/standing

7. Recheck the measurement and repeat as necessary

8. When finished, reinstall the truss rod cover

 

Reference

 

 

* 0.178 to 0.432 mm (0.007 - 0.017 inches) at fret 7

 

Summary - Step 3

Proper neck bow adjustment is critical for good action with no buzzing. Too little neck bow will cause buzzing on frets 2-7, whereas too much neck bow will cause higher than necessary action at the lower frets. Neck bow requires time for the neck to settle, so make a change, retune then recheck the measurements again after several minutes.

[Black Bird]

Action Height

 

"Action" is the term used to describe how far the strings are from the frets. This measurement is usually taken at the last fret by measuring from the top of the fret to the bottom of the string. You can use a feeler gauge but using a simple mm rule is just as effective, in fact I don't use feeler gauges for anything Many times you will hear action measurements including a measurement at the 12th [or some other fret]. Measuring at the 12th fret assumes every necks bow profile is the same and they never are. The bow profile of your neck will ultimately dictate the kind of setup that works best for it. [bow is the amount of relief or "frontbow" the neck is dialed into, bow profile describes where the relief is] Some necks will show bow only from the 7th to the nut, some will show a very long smooth even bow throughout the whole neck, and many other profiles. I measure action at the 24th, but only to get a number to advise others, I would never setup a guitar with a mm rule, each guitar is unique and has it's own peculiarities.

 

Action is also dependent on fretboard radius, some will be 430mm, some 250mm, some in between. A 250mm radius fretboard requires higher action so the strings don't choke while making large bends. The flatter the board, the lower you can set the action without choking.

 

Playing style also can dictate how low, if you don't bend strings you can set it lower than someone who plays with lots of big bends. If you have a really heaving picking hand [or bad picking technique] your wound strings will give more buzz than somebody with a much lighter hand [or perfect technique]. If you have a heavy pickhand you might need to raise the low side as high as 4mm to completely clean it up, again assuming clean fretwork and correct [for that neck] relief.

 

While on the subject of buzz, lighter gauge strings will have more buzz than heavier, and different brands will buzz more or less than others. I use D'Addario's which are a very pliable string but also buzzier because of this. A set of DR Tite Fit is much less pliable and will not buzz as much given the same action and setup.

 

As a average and a starting point, on a 430mm 24 fret board, with around .4 - .5mm of relief measured at the 9th with the low E string fretted at the 1st and 24th, and set for light to medium pick hand with minimal low E buzz, measured at the 24th fret - 2mm on the wound E and 1.7mm on the high E. I will set it as low as buzz will allow on the wound side, and as low as bending will allow on the high side and still get full tone on big bends, assuming no problems with the fretwork or the bow profile. You can go lower on the high side but I also like to feel the string under my fingers and around 1.7 it's also keeping the action fairly even across the fret [high to low E]. Action much higher on the wounds than on the unwounds is awkward and I prefer the balance.

 

On a 250mm radius board with .4 - .5mm of relief it's more like 2mm on the wound and 1.8 on the the high side. As low as you can get the high E with clean clear big bends. To get lower on the high side without choking under bends in the upper frets you will need less relief in the neck.

 

There are many different ways to setup a guitar,

 

Silly Low - Some like the neck perfectly straight or with the slightest amount of relief, and the action right on the frets. Perfectly straight neck and extremely low action will give you playability that's unparalleled for some people, a very low resistance to fretting, but there are sacrifices. The lower the action the more the strings are being choked by the frets. It has a way of disguising fret buzz by smoothing it out. On a medium action you'll hear the buzz quite well as the string is usually just pinging off of one or possibly two frets. On silly low the string is pinging off of so many frets it's not as apparent as "buzz", but what all that contact with the frets is doing is robbing your notes of the full tone that string could offer if it was allowed to breath. Processed signals can virtually hide the choking, but if you ever plug into a clean channel you'll notice right away. You can get away with silly low if you've got an extremely light pick attack. Typically in a setup this would be a perfectly straight neck to .2-.3mm of neck relief, and action height at the last fret of 1.5mm or lower. Not good for playing big bends without impeccable fretwork and a flatter radius fretboard.

 

Low - Adding just a little more neck relief and raising the action will give a cleaner tone, longer sustain, and tolerable buzz with a medium/light pick attack. This is usually the typical setup for guitars I ship. I like just a hair more neck relief than some as it gives cleaner wounds though most of the neck, but will get some light choking on the wounds through the upper frets. Good clear tone on the majority of the neck with and a light fingering feel and enough resistance that you can feel the strings under your fingers. Typical is .4-.5mm of neck relief and 2mm string height on the low E, and 1.8mm on the high E at the last fret.

 

Low revised - Since I give every guitar a fret level now I typically keep the relief down in the .3mm range to reduce the amount of "boing" from the slightly higher action in the 4-12th fret range. The overall action is still the same at 2mm bass and 1.8mm treble. As I mature I have grown to like this setup better in the middle range. Tastes change, and you should set your guitar up to your taste.

 

Medium - You can still add a little neck relief but after a certain point more relief just isn't an advantage. Raising the action height is and will continue to clean and fatten up your tone and increase the feel of the strings under your fingers. Medium relief is .5-.6mm of neck relief action of 2.5mm on the low E and 2-2.5mm on the high E.

 

High - Lots of frontbow and high action will give you a very clean playing guitar with full tone, and lots of extra calluses. However much neck relief you want and action on the low E at 3mm or more, action on the high E over 2.2mm to as high as you want.

 

There is another school of thought that the higher the action the less relief the neck needs since the height of the action itself produces little buzz. Relief with high action is more about keeping the action more even the length of the neck and not as much about buzz. Like anything in a setup it's all about the compromise and the preference of the individual player.

 

The wound E is going to vibrate in an ellipse that will vary by how hard it's struck. Strike it light and it will have a small ellipse, strike it hard and it will have a much larger ellipse. A higher gauge string will vibrate in a smaller ellipse because it is strung "tighter" than a smaller gauge string to get the same pitch. Your action should be compromise of how much buzz you can take, the feel you want from the strings, and the tone you want to produce.

 

Setting the Action - Action is my last adjustment in a setup, after neck relief and the trem angle are set I will dial in the string height. With it approximate, I will then break and adjust the nut height since this is dependent on everything being in correct setup to get as low as possible without open string buzz, then do a fine tune on the action after the nut is set for the final adjustment before playing the guitar to determine if it needs any further tweaking.

 

Action Adjustment

 

Adjusting the action varies by the type of guitar but since this is an Ibanez site you'll find Ibanez directions. Final action adjustment is the last tweak to make and should be done when the neck relief is correct [for you] and the trem angle is correct. After it's set make a final check of the setup to be positive nothing else has changed. Once action height is set it should never need adjusting, the only things that will change it are the natural changes your neck will make as it warms/cools/humidifies/dries, and the trem angle which will change for the same reasons, as your neck moves, and your body swells and shrinks. Adjust what is changing, don't just tweak the string height as a quick fix instead of tweaking what has caused the action to change.

 

Floating Bridge - Edge, Lo Pro, Pro Edge, and all of the double locking Floyd variants are adjusted by raising and lowering the trem studs that the knife edges pivot on. There is a small 1.5mm Allen adjustable set screw inside the studs on all Edge and Lo Pro equipped guitars that must be kept tight for the best tuning stability. Never try and loosen it with the allen wrench but use the 4mm Allen to back out [Lefty Loosey] the studs a hair to free the set screws. If raising the action raise it until it's correct and retighten the set screws. If lowering the action use the 1.5mm Allen to back out the set screw enough to allow the bridge to be lowered. When correct retighten the set screws. Important! After you've tightened the sets using the 1.5mm Allen use your 4mm Allen to tighten the studs down on the set screw to really lock the threads together and give a very solid fulcrum for the bridge. It should only be about 1/16th of a turn so don't try grinding everything together or you'll either break the head off the stud or spin the stud anchors in the body, use good sense when applying torque, but you do want the threads locked together. Adjusting the string height to a large degree will alter the tuning slightly, which can alter everything. If you are making extreme action adjustments be sure to retune, readjust the trem angle, and then recheck the action. Yes, you can adjust the studs with the strings at full pitch without fear of damaging the knife edges or the studs.

 

Vintage Trem and Fixed Bridge - Adjusting the action of these types of bridges entails adjusting the height of the 2 adjustment screws on each saddle. Each string is adjusted independently so it is important to keep the bridge radius in sync with the fretboard radius. Do this by measuring each string at the last fret. With this type bridge I always like to keep the same radius to the saddles themselves so they're more of a nice arc than a stepped feel across the bridge.

 

Gibson Type Stoptails - These are all generally adjusted by raising or lowering the mounting studs for the bridge using wheels built into the studs. On a Gilbraltar type you have to loosen the screws on top of the bridge to be able to raise or lower the bridge using the wheel adjusters. It is advisable to slack the strings to decrease the tension on the bridge to make these adjustments. Tune and check the action, repeating as many times as necessary to get correct.

[Black Bird]

Step 5: Pickup Height

 

Pickup height is something that varies widely between guitarists. Overall you want to get the pickup as close to the string as possible without causing a lack of clarity and excess magnetic pull on the string. Too far away and the pickup will lose it's high output. I don't think many JEM users want low output pickups. Too close to the strings and the sound will lose clarity and the guitar can lose sustain, as the magnetic pull from the pickups slows the vibrating string. Loss of note clarity can be enhanced by low action due to slight buzzing but since you've all followed the above steps, this is not likely.

 

I always measure string clearance height off the pickup when the string is fretted at the 24th fret. This is so you can visualize clearance of the string when it's being played or fretted. I have all my JEMs set different in regard to pickup height, sometimes you can go strictly by ear, but should never be too close. The Evolution pickups are high output, so you can lower them a bit for sure and still get lots of crunch.

 

Pickup height is for much more than just getting high output. It is very useful for balancing the volume levels between the low wound strings and the plain steel strings high strings. Also you can get a more balanced 5-way sound by lowering the neck and middle pickups and raising the middle pickup to keep volume levels consistent between all pickup configurations. I don't do this however, as I prefer a slight volume drop in positions 2-3-4.

 

Step By Step: Tremolo Bridge Height Adjustment

 

Tools Needed

 

 

* Small Flathead screwdriver for neck/bridge pickups

* Small Phillips-head screwdriver for middle pickup

 

Procedure

 

 

1. Adjust the pickup height as necessary

* Lower the pickups - loosen the pickup attachment screws by turning each screw counterclockwise

* Raise the pickups - tighten the pickup attachment screws by turning each screw clockwise

2. When finished jam out on your guitar!!!

 

Reference

 

 

* Neck pickup - 1.6 to 2.0 mm minimum clearance between the string and pickup when the string is depressed at fret 24

* Middle pickup - 1.6 to 2.0 mm minimum clearance when fret 24 is depressed

* Bridge pickup: - 1.6 to 2.0 mm minimum clearance when fret 24 is depressed

 

Summary - Step 5

Setup the pickups to your personal preference. I like to use it to balance volume between low and high strings in addition t volume levels between different pickup combos on the 5-way switch. It is probably a good idea to not get them any closer to the strings than the reference measurements, but it's your guitar. Unless you're real anal and have loads of free time, don't bother with adjusting the individual pole pieces. Go by your ears.

[synchu]

e са вече, ако не е ясно .... занеси я на лютиер

[Black Bird]

e са вече, ако не е ясно .... занеси я на лютиер

нема майтап и до там се стига

[redburner]

Nalbantov: батенце ти ме зарови в инфо! мерси мн ся ще чета че да се образовам... но първо мисля да направя проверката на niki123bg мерси мн за съветите!

[Black Bird]

Nalbantov: батенце ти ме зарови в инфо!      мерси мн ся ще чета че да се образовам... но първо мисля да направя проверката на niki123bg мерси мн за съветите!  

не на ники!защото ако гледаш на 12 китарата става прекалено ниска

и може да бръжди по надолу

 

гледа се на 24 прагче и ако си назор на 14

 

 

а иначе се натиска с каподастер 1 ва позиция и с пръст 24 позиция

 

и се гледа на 8 прагче да има нула цяло ии 3 мм между струната и прагчето...

Редактирано Юли 28, 2005 от Nalbantov

[redburner]

хмм.. а сега де, всеки различно казва важното е че разбрах идеята!

[Black Bird]

хмм.. а сега де, всеки различно казва важното е че разбрах идеята!

ти май не четеш

казвам каквото пише в ибанезрулз и джемсайт .цом!

изпровано е на 2та ми ибанеза

и по удобни не съм срещал.

 

 

прочети големите постове

ако трябва намери помощ за englisha

 

друго не ти требе

[redburner]

аз енглиша го разбирам ами не съм седнал да го прочета още.. и това ще стане.. надявам се че всичко трябва да е същото и с моята китара предвид че не е ибанез...

[niki123bg]

ако гледаш на 12 китарата става прекалено ниска

и може да бръжди по надолу

 

гледа се на 24 прагче и ако си назор на 14

Ако на 12-то прагче е 2.5 мм, то на 14-то е примерно 2.8мм и т.н. Разликата от огъването на грифа е минимална при две почти съседни прагчета, така че тя не се отчита в случая. Тоест ако я настроиш на 2.5 мм на 12-то прагче, струните ти ще бъдат по-високо отколкото ако настроиш на 2.5 мм на 14 прагче. Колкото повече се доближаваш до крайните прагчета, толкова по-голямо е разстоянието между тях и струните. Така, че това че настроена на 12-то прагче ще е по-ниска не е съвсем вярно.

 

Колкото до това на кое прагче да се настройва и на каква височина, това според мен е безмислен спор. В user manual-а на моята ямаха изрично пише 12-то прагче и са дадени стойностите които написах по-горе. За Ibenez гледах user manual не знам за какъв модел в който бяха посочени стойности за 14-то прагче.

 

Човека е с различна от нашите китари, така че нека си погледне в книжката.

 

Важното беше да му се разясни принципа. Сега той трябва да си прецени от къде да вземе конкретните данни.

 

Това което си пейстнал от ибанец руллз е много полезно.

 

Моята китара е по принцип доста високо настроена, но така ми харесва като звук и пак се свири лесно.